SA 4882, Dead Kids & Hillary

"The little canisters dropped onto the city, white ribbons trailing behind. They clattered into streets, landed in lemon trees, rattled around on roofs, settled onto lawns."

When Jassim al-Qaisi saw the canisters the size of D batteries falling on his neighborhood just before 7 a.m. April 7, he laughed and asked himself: "Now what are the Americans throwing on our heads?"

What indeed?

"The strange objects were fired by U.S. artillery outside Baghdad as U.S. forces approached the Iraqi capital. In the span of a few minutes, they would kill four civilians in the al-Dora neighborhood of southern Baghdad and send al-Qaisi's teenage son to the hospital with metal fragments in his foot.

The deadly objects were cluster bomblets, small explosives packed by the dozens or hundreds into bombs, rockets or artillery shells known as cluster weapons. When these weapons were fired on Baghdad on April 7, many of the bomblets failed to explode on impact. They were picked up or stumbled on by their victims.

The four who died in the al-Dora neighborhood that day lived a few blocks from al-Qaisi's house. Rashid Majid, 58, who was nearsighted, stepped on an unexploded bomblet around the corner from his home. The explosion ripped his legs off. As he lay bleeding in the street, another bomblet exploded a few yards away, instantly killing three young men, including two of Majid's sons -- Arkan, 33, and Ghasan, 28. "My sons! My sons!" Majid called out. He died a few hours later.


source

According to Human Rights Watch the US maintains a stockpile of cluster munitions that have 1 billion sub-munitions (bomblets) and we have used them all over the world. It's clear that their use hasn't been limited to the battlefield out in the middle of a desert somewhere but that they've been used in civilian areas as well.

Hundreds of civilians in Iraq have died when civilian centers were hit with cluster bombs.

Use of cluster munitions may very well be war  crimes but there can be no doubt that their use on civilian centers is at a minimum immoral.

On September 5, 2006, Senators Feinstein and Leahy introduced Senate Amendment 4882, through which they sought to prevent the US from ever again using such immoral weapons, which stated:

"No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary, including inhabited parts of cities or villages, camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or camps or groups of nomads.
source

On September 6, 2006 the amendment was voted on. It was defeated 70-30 with 15 Democrats crossing over to vote with 55 Republicans.

One of those Democrats was Hillary Clinton.

Barack Obama voted for the amendment.

source

That's a substantive difference. That's not petty sniping. That's not rumor or innuendo. One candidate did the right and moral thing and tried to save innocent life. The other did not.



Display:


you don't understand (1.00 / 2)

Hillary can't appear "weak." If it means civilians have to have their legs ripped off, so be it.


by highgrade on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:09:05 PM EST

Oh yeah. I forgot! (none / 0)


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

feinstein and leahey didn't do their homework. (none / 0)

they tried to get this measure passed without any committee work. it affected the ability of the US military to use these bombs, and would have removed an entire weapon class from the US inventory and replaced it with... nothing. oops. israel was under a moratorium for export of cluster munitions, and had been for years when they tried this stunt. even if it had passed, it wouldn't have saved a single lebanese kid's life. with or without this bill, israel would have gotten nothing.

the feinstein bill was a publicity stunt, and never had a chance of passing in a republican-controlled congress. joe biden himself, the then-ranking member and now chairman of the foreign relations committee, took the floor and said this was a dumb idea. you gotta do the foreign relations and armed services committee work before you pass legislation like this.

obama got a cheap pander vote in by voting against it, which had zero impact on anything.  when an amendment to the military spending bill was proposed outlawing sales to foreign governments in 2007, he didn't even bother to show up to vote for it. so much for obama, the great cluster bomb crusader. as usual, he's all talk.


by campskunk on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feinstein and leahey didn't do their homework. (none / 0)

So what? Cluster bombs aren't necessary.

I guess some Americans are just scumbags who don't give a shit about civilians more than they care about empire.


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:57:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feinstein and leahey didn't do their homework. (none / 0)

* or don't give a shit about civilians and only care about empire even.


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feinstein and leahey didn't do their homework. (none / 0)

maybe we'll put you in charge of what weapons the US military is and is not allowed to use. that'll work out well, i'm sure.


by campskunk on Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 10:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The amendment was not complex. (none / 0)

Dead kids and weak or immoral political votes are never positive but it is the truth. Don't worry McCain voted against it to so he can't use it against her if she gets the nomination.


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:43:17 PM EST

Re: SA 4882, Dead Kids & Hillary (none / 0)

Yeah. Nothing you said justifies voting to allow cluster bombs to be used in civilian areas. The GOP calls him weak and all he has to do is show pictures of dead kids and say that they're responsible and war criminals.

Weakness is voting for something like this out of fear. Your politiking doesn't soothe the parents or families of the dead. It just makes you look weak and cowardly.


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:57:06 PM EST

Re: SA 4882, Dead Kids & Hillary (none / 0)

By your own recitation, the amendment would NOT have prevented the US from "ever again using such immoral weapons." The amendment, had it passed, would only have forbidden the use of US made cluster bombs in civilian areas.

In addition, it is already illegal under US law for foreign governments to use US-made cluster bombs against civilian populations. Israel violated this law in its 1982 invasion of Lebanon, after which the sale of cluster bombs to it was forbidden. Eventually, the restriction was lifted, and Israel was back to its old tricks in its 2006 invasion of Lebanon.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2006/08/25/AR2006082500209. html

However, Senator Obama, in his March 2007 speech to AIPAC, praised Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and said nothing about the use of cluster bombs against civilians.

"Even the Bush administration recently criticized Israel's use of cluster bombs against Lebanese civilians. But Obama defended Israel's assault on Lebanon as an exercise of its 'legitimate right to defend itself.'"

http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/art icle6619.shtml

For the full text of Obama's speech, which never uses the words "cluster bomb," see here:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/03/ obamas_aipac_speech_text_as_pr.html

So yes, Obama voted in favor of an amendment in the Senate which had no chance of passing. But, when the very practice which the amendment sought to forbid (the use of cluster bombs against civilians) was engaged in by the Israeli government, and so much so and so obviously that even the knee-jerk, pro-Israel Bush Administration felt the need to at least make some noise about it, Obama kept silent. A few months later, Obama gave his speech to the leading pro-Israel lobbying group in the US and never mentioned the use of cluster bombs, but, instead praised Israel and blamed its opponents for using "civilian shields."


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 07:58:39 PM EST

Re: SA 4882, Dead Kids & Hillary (none / 0)

Uh yeah. Civilian areas. The rest of what you said doesn't seem to mean anything. He goes to AIPAC and doesn't say anything? So what? Foreign governments can't use them? So what?

Nice try but that smoke screen didn't work.


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SA 4882, Dead Kids & Hillary (none / 0)

Not sure how to put it any more plainly. US law already forbids foreign governments from using US cluster bombs against civilians. The Israelis violated this law, and on a massive scale. Again, so much so that even the Bush Administration felt like it had to call them on. But Obama did not call them on it. And, when Obama gave his speech to AIPAC, not only didn't he call them on it, but he praised the militray operation that the use of the cluster bombs against civilians was a part of, and placed the blame for the civilian deaths on Israel's opponents.

If Obama was such a principled opponent of the use of cluster bombs against civilians, one would have thought that he might have mentioned his displeasure with Israel's indiscriminate use of US-made cluster bombs against Lebanese civilians, either duing or shortly after the war, or at his AIPAC speech. But he did not do so.

I think the reasonable conclusion that one could draw from this is that Obama's support of the Senate amendment, while perhaps laudible, was easy. Taking on AIPAC and the pro-Israel lobby would have been hard. Obama did the easy thing, but not the hard thing.

Again, most people would have understood that this was the import of my first post. So, next time, before you post "So what?" try to think what point your interlocutor might be making, and attempt to respond to that.


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SA 4882, Dead Kids & Hillary (none / 0)

Uh yeah. You keep talking about foreign governments.

This bill was about our government.

So again. So what?


by illlaw1 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not getting it (none / 0)

"Uh yeah. You keep talking about foreign governments.

This bill was about our government."

Again, your own recitation proves you wrong:

"No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, SELL, or TRANSFER any cluster munition unless. . .[emphasis added]"

Do you see that? "Sell" or "transfer." That means foreign governments. Like Israel. Isreal's massive use of US-made cluster bombs ended less than a month before Obama voted for the amendment. As I just pointed out, Israel's use of US-made cluster bombs would be illegal under the amendment Obama signed (it was actually already illegal, but that is besides the point).

Again, if one was not being willfuly obtuse, one would see that Obama, by not criticizing Israel at that time, or a few months later in his AIPAC speech, was undercutting the argument that he had taken a principled stand against the use of cluster bombse against civilians.

Israel used cluster bombs against civilians. Its actions were in violation of the very law that Obama voted for. And yet, he said nothing about it. Do you not see how this might be problematic?

Rather than continue to repeat "So what?" until you are blue in the face, why don't you address this point.


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HI! (none / 0)

Why do you keep ignoring the part about our government not utilizing them?


You've been debunked! Was it as good for you as it was for me?
by LiberallyDebunked on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HI! (none / 0)

"do you keep ignoring the part about our government not utilizing them?"

First of all, the amendment would not prevent our government from using cluster bombs. Nor would it have effectively prevented our government from using them in civilian areas. Read what the amendment actually says:

"No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians."

All that is required for the US military to continue to use cluster bombs is that it write its "rules of engagement" to forbid their use in civilian areas. It would be surprising to me if the US military's ROE did not already include that proviso. And, when it seems that the ROE is being violated, the US military says the same things the Israelis say: we didn't know there were civilians there, the "bad guys" were hiding out among civilians, a few low level soldiers violated the ROE's and those "bad apples" are being punished, etc.

In short, there is a loophole in the amendment big enough to drive a truck through.


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HI! (none / 0)

As a correction, I thought I should mention that, from what I can gather, this represents the latest word on the US DoD's ROE with respect to cluster bombs:

"In its 2004 report, the Pentagon acknowledged 'the potential danger to non-combatants posed by UXO [unexploded ordnance]' and declared that it had 'developed strict rules of engagement and targeting methodologies, intended to minimize risks to civilians in or near the zone of conflict.'"

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Landmi nes_html/WhatWeLeaveBehind_ClusterB.html

So, it is not true, despite what I stated, that the US is already theoretically following the ROE set out in the Senate amendment. On the other hand, I still think that my larger point still stands. Even if the ROE was changed from the one quoted above to the one in the amendment, I doubt very much that the actual practice of the US military would change very much.


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 11:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HI! (none / 0)

Right. No use in civilian areas. That's the point. Thanks for playing!


by illlaw1 on Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 09:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Just to be factual here (none / 0)

AIPAC was neutral on SA 4882:
"AIPAC is not taking a position on the cluster-bomb curbs . . . according to a spokesman for the group."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/ 0227-07.htm

And in regard to the effectiveness of US laws forbidding cluster ammo, Human Rights Watch has this to say:
"national measures to implement International Humanitarian Law with regard to cluster munitions have not been effective."
http://hrw.org/campaigns/clusters/myths. htm#_Toc160865774


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just to be factual here (none / 0)

"AIPAC was neutral on SA 4882:
'AIPAC is not taking a position on the cluster-bomb curbs. . .'"

Yes, because it knows that, regardless of the letter of US law, Isreal will be allowed to get away with its use of cluster bombs (and any thing else it wants to do), by the US. And this will be true so long as every mainstream politician in the US continues to bow down to the Israeli lobby, and that includes Obama, Hillary, Bush, McCain, and the rest of them. Look at the article about Obama I linked to. At one time, he made some noise about fairness to Israel's enemies, but now that he is running for president, that all over.

". . .national measures to implement International Humanitarian Law with regard to cluster munitions have not been effective."

All the more reason to think this Senate amendment would not achieved very much, even if had passed.


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 09:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just to be factual here (none / 0)

Your principal argument that Obama has not been "taking on AIPAC and the pro-Israel lobby" just isn't relevant in regard to the vote on SA 4882. It simply has nothing to do with the diary. And your position that SA 4882 was mere paper legislation because "US law already forbids foreign governments..." is not substantiated. There are numerous authorities that are adamant about the need for more vigilance against these cruel weapons. The legislation was welcomed and supported by these authorities. Furthermore, you're entirely ducking the argument that Senator Clinton's vote is absolutely the wrong vote in this instance, even if your points are correct. Calling Obama's vote "easy" is not a defense of Senator Clinton's vote. She voted wrong on this and Obama voted right.


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just to be factual here (none / 0)

"Your principal argument that Obama has not been 'taking on AIPAC and the pro-Israel lobby' just isn't relevant in regard to the vote on SA 4882. It simply has nothing to do with the diary."

The point of the diary, I take it, is that Obama has taken a principled stand against the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. Israel blatantly and massively used cluster bombs against civilians just weeks before Obama's vote on the amendment which provides the evidence for this alleged prinicipled stand. Israel also happens to have a virtually invincible lobby on Capitol Hill. Yet Obama did not even peep about Israel's actions. If you want to play naive, that's fine, but I think most people understand the difference between a symbolic vote for a Senate amendment that everyone knows is going down to defeat, and taking on the most powerful lobby in Washington. Moreover, what good would a law prohibiting the transfer of cluster bombs to nations that use them against civilians do, if the President and other top leaders, like a Senator Who Would Be President, refuse to enforce that law against blatant offenders, like Israel?

As I mentioned before, the use of US-made cluster bombs by foreign governments against civilians is already illegal under US law.

And that brings us to:

". . .your position that SA 4882 was mere paper legislation because 'US law already forbids foreign governments...' is not substantiated."

The following is the first sentence of the Washington Post article I linked to:

"The State Department said yesterday that it has begun a preliminary investigation into allegations that Israel violated U.S. rules prohibiting the use of American-made cluster bombs in civilian areas during the recent war in Lebanon."

So, you see, it is substantiated. Read the article, and you will see that Israel was denied US cluster bombs after its violation of this US law in 1982. The ban was since rescinded, Israel got US cluster bombs, and broke US law again in 2006 by using them against civilians.

"there are numerous authorities that are adamant about the need for more vigilance against these cruel weapons."

Certainly, but what "vigilance" did Obama demonstrate in his silence about Israel's use of them against civilians, or in his fawning, sycophantic speech to AIPAC? How can you even write this sentence? Vigilance is needed in enforcing the law, even when politically unpopular, and Obama showed no stomache for that.

"Furthermore, you're entirely ducking the argument that Senator Clinton's vote is absolutely the wrong vote in this instance, even if your points are correct. Calling Obama's vote 'easy' is not a defense of Senator Clinton's vote. She voted wrong on this and Obama voted right."

I think it has already been pointed out that the then ranking member, and later chairman, of the committee voted against it as well. And, as you mentioned, AIPAC did not oppose the amendment, even though, if it had been passed and enforced, it could theoretically be used against Israel. That is  because knew it wouldn't be passed, and even if it was, it would never actually be used against Israel. The human rights group you cited also stated that national laws were ineffective on this issue. There were also procedural reasons that have been mentioned for voting against it.

There is nothing simpler, and more facile, than taking some vote, out of the hundreds if not thousands made by a legislator, out of context, and using it as a club against that legislator. Hillary's vote did not defeat the amendment. The amendment never had a chance of passing while the Republcans controlled the Senate. The amendment, in short, was a grandstand manoever, designed to make its supporters look good, but never expected to become law.

But now, and, especially today, this meme is being floated all over the internet to prove Obama's moral superiority. In this instance, we have a diarist telling us that Hillary wants to kill children. That is an absurdity, and a sick and disgusting one at that. This vote didn't mean jack, and Obama voting "right" on it while Hillary voted "wrong" means even less.


by freemansfarm on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 10:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing unfair here (none / 0)

Senator Clinton's vote on this bill is reprehensible. From Media Bloodhound, emphasis added:
"Just to be perfectly clear, Senator Clinton voted against banning the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. Her vote was not against banning the use of cluster bombs altogether. Think about that: Should our military be permitted to use cluster bombs in civilian areas, with each exploding bomb covering the range of a football field? Yes or no? Senator Clinton said yes. Senator Obama said no. "
http://mediabloodhound.typepad.com/weblo g/2008/02/hillary-vs-obam.html#more
McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:15:16 PM EST


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